Discussion Thread: Scrap ID cards and roll back database state

This is an archived discussion thread for the "Scrap ID cards and roll back database state" voting page. Voting, and this discussion thread, have now closed.  

Mr Buckley 1 month ago 

6 people liked this.
Do we really need a DNA Database? 
If the Police already have a suspect for a crime which in most cases they do, the Police can simply check the suspects DNA against the crime scene DNA directly; you don't need a National DNA Database to do this. The justification for the DNA Database and its expansion lies solely in detecting suspects who would not otherwise have been associated with the crime.

TREGRAHOW 1 month ago in reply to Mr Buckley
 
5 people liked this.
The suggestion that police in most cases already have a suspect is itself suspect. Police are not on the ground for any worthwhile amount of time and are in no position to gather intelligence about the criminals on their patch. They don't live in their divisional area as they did prior to the sixties shake-up when they moved out of police houses and into the well-off areas in the suburbs and beyond.

As for DNA: those convicted of crime should have their DNA stored - all other DNA should be destroyed.

stuartdwells 1 month ago

11 people liked this.
This an essential part of rolling back the Database 'Big Brother' State.
According to the government participation is 'voluntary'.
However, from 20011 you will have to be on the National Identity Register' to get a Passport.
So it is 'voluntary' - as long as you don't want a Passport?

Other Database that should be either abandoned or scaled down include DNA and Contact Point.
I appear to have run out of space for this comment - see next.

stuartdwells 1 month ago

13 people liked this.
Continuation from above. People say that the DNA Database helps catch criminals - yes and no.
Any Database is only as good as the software running it and the people controlling it or entering the data. There have been instances where items have been left unprotected and the DNA compromised. Also, recently the Scottish Fingerprint Laboratory was found to have a large number of incorrect entries. Did you know that over 70% of the entries in the PNC are incorrect in some way? Another Database that should be abandoned is the new NHS Spine. We are already the most photographed people in Europe. Now we will be the most documented.

mike ilett 1 month ago
 
mairinart and 25 more liked this.
this is one of the most horrifying, and to me worrying ideas that the government of britain prodded by the european union has come up with. it truly represents a dictator state which must be avoided by britain at all costs. i am a very concerned citizen of some of the policies we see being implemented, and i for one will stand up to this policy and say "NO", i will refuse point blank to accept or carry an ID card,or furnish any information required. thousands of good people died for our freedom, we cannot let them (and ourselves) down by allowing our freedom to be stamped out by any government.

pauline chapman 1 week ago in reply to mike ilett
 
2 people liked this.
I still have my original Identity card issued to when I was born in 1940. I have never had cause to use it that I know of, although my parents may have had to proffer it at some time or other.
I am all for ID cards, if you have nothing to hide then you have nothing to fear.
Every time you are using a PC, smart phone, mobile, someone is logging the details somewhere .All of our personal information is stored and can be retrieved by officials. Does this not bother you?

marycurran 1 week ago in reply to pauline chapman

4 people liked this.
Yes it does bother me that officials are logging every PC move, communication etc,and also that our personal data is already being treated so cavalierly by corporations and the authorities, who are not fit to be entrusted with it.What this campaign is all about is stooping this appalling situation from getting even worse. And the ID scheme will make it much much worse. As has been pointed out numerous times, this ID scheme is in a totally different league from the ones we had in the war, or those in some Continental countries: for a start they're to be linked to a huge central database containing virtually EVERYTHING about you, including fingerprints and allegations made about you without your knowlege.I suggest you have a good look round the NO2ID website,www.no2id.net. Plus some further links which I have already given elsewhere in this forum, particularly the Open Europe one. I will give them again in post to follow directly.

marycurran 1 week ago in reply to pauline chapman

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http://www.openeurope.org.uk/research/howtheeui...

I don't know how anyone reading all this, and the NO2ID website, and the comments on this forum, can still say Nothing to Hide nothing to fear.

marycurran 1 month ago

martinboothby and 15 more liked this.
The 2006 ID Card Act is one of the most disgusting degrading and evil pieces of legislation ever, it's an insult to citizens. And it will make the UK worse than East Germany under the Stasi.
It will eventually be a charter for bullies, jobsworths who will make our daily lives a living hell if our papers are not 100% in order. And it will give the Government a chance to squeeze even more money out of ordinary decent people in fines for non compliance. I seriously wonder whether this is one of their motives. We truly are at war with our own Government, whom we pay to serve us.
I totally fail to understand the Nothing to Hide Nothing to Fear brigade. 
Even if the ID scheme did solve a few problems, it would be at the cost of embracing a far worse evil.

joncarr 1 week ago in reply to marycurran

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Spot on mary. Well done. If everyone thought like you, we would'nt be in this sinister and quite frankly, evil situation. As for you saying, we are at war, with our own government, you've taken the words out of my mouth. problem is getting people, to realise this. when i mention this to people, most think that i'm bonkers. I think it's important, that we care what goes on in our country, sadly with people i talk to, that does'nt seem to be the case

Prester John 1 month ago

 
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Strongly disagree that this is a fundamental constitutional idea. Concern is legitimate but we already have huge amounts of our personal information stored with banks and commercial companies whom I regard - at the moment - as less trustworthy than government.

marycurran 1 month ago in reply to Prester John

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It's true that banks and other organisations have an insatiable thirst for our personal data, beyond what they need, and it's very important to challenge them all the time and not to give it to them unless it's absolutely necessary. But also the Government is using them to do some of its dirty (data gathering) work, e.g under "Money Laundering" regulations. These regulations in my opinion go way over the top, and compromise our privacy all the time. And the Govt and banks etc aid and abet each other.
I do think it is a constitutional issue: the Govt may srenuously deny it, but registration on the National Identity Register will eventually be compulsory. It will alter the relationship between citizen and state.

Tony 1 month ago

martinboothby and 8 more liked this.
we need to keep a careful watch on the degree of government control that occurs. already the balance of central government control is greater than it should be in my opinion. we will not always have a relatively benign government in control and the sort of information that could be available to an authoritarian regime could greatly jeopardise our future liberty

martinboothby 1 month ago

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Good grief, what next? When are these lunatic ideas going to stop - more importantly, WHO is going to stop them?

D. Redfern 1 month ago

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I don't really have a problem with the concept of an ID card as such my concern is that the potential abuse of the associated linked databases outweighs the potential benefits. The only meaningful impact ID cards would have on crime is to save the Police some time as they have identity checking systems already in place. The often cited immigration control would be addressed by a proper immigration policy thereby rendering an ID card of any value in only a minority of cases. The problem is the Tories won't change anything when they get in, if anyone's interested have a look at the Libertarian Party, mildly radical but committed to reinvigorate personal freedom and a true reduction of the government state.

marycurran 1 month ago in reply to D. Redfern
 
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I'm not sure it would save police time, if we are all to be fingerprinted and treated as suspects. Police trawling through the fingerprints of all of us, rather than just those of proven criminals, could be hampered: while seeking for a needle in a haystack, why make the haystack bigger? 
I would be interested to hear the views of a police officer.

trevormagee 1 month ago

5 people liked this.
We enjoy more surveilliance than any other state in Western Europe -yet there is little evidence that this has made any real effect on crime in our society or on counter terrorism. Whilst the ordinary citizen is subject to intense surveilliance our Mps seem to enjoy all sorts of protection to their privacy(ie witness the blanked out sections of their expenses claims) and virtual immunity from criminal prosecution when they are caught in what is essentially deliberate acts of fraud. Its time to stop the slide into a "Big Brother" state.

mrs_atoz 1 month ago
 
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Now that a new system of using fingerprints for verification of school lunch is being introduced in schools, this means that all children will be fingerprinted. Parents are being told that the information is not used for any other purpose but, of course, this is only holds true until someone decides otherwise. I believe at this point anyone of school age should be very worried for the future.

mrs_atoz 1 month ago
 
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They are now using fingerprint systems in schools for verifying school lunches! Whilst parent are being told that the information is only used for this purpose, this only holds true until someone decides otherwise and by then the information has been collected. Parents and all children of school age need to resist this back door attempt to get our youth used to the idea that they must submit to any request for personal information and need to raise awareness that this is not benign and safe.

marycurran 1 month ago in reply to mrs_atoz

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I couldn't agree more, and it's appalling that so many supposedly- educated teachers go along with it. 
There's a website about this, www.leavethemkidsalone.com

alanbroomhead 1 month ago

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this is another way to know everything by this totalitarian government.and if we dont get rid of them
at the next election we may not have another chance to do so as they are gradualy eroding all our
freedom.this country has survived for years without i.d. cards.they ought to channel their energies
to ridding our lovely country of muslim fundimentalists who are intent on making it into a islamic
state before it is too late and our indeginous population are emigrating en mass.that should be their 
priority.

BEWARE 1 month ago in reply to alanbroomhead
 
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Alot of people are already afraid to agree with comments being made because of the monitoring of blogs and even GOOGLE searches.
I expect that Information collected for ID cards would also be sold, as government agencies look to raise more funds to pay for their executives saleries and bonuses, given for failing it's citizens but excessive collection of personal information. 
Your personal information is already being sold as it is a valuable commodity.

PETER DORR. 1 week ago in reply to alanbroomhead
Alan,
If you think our present government in the UK, GB or England is 'totalitarian' then you ought to have visited South Africa or the Soviet Union during the 1960s!

Thanks for reading this.

marycurran 1 week ago in reply to PETER DORR.

2 people liked this.
The UK is not yet as totalitarian as the USSR pre-1989, but the point is that it is rapidly moving in that direction. Our Govt is trying little by little to see how far it can go,and if we keep rolling over and letting them, the chances are that we will eventually end up like the Soviet Union.That's how totalitarianism takes hold. Then there's the EU:
the writing's on the wall: the EU, aided and abetted by our Govt, have a 5 year surveillance plan to be able to snoop on everything we do, everywhere we go, everything we buy and use etc. There are plans for the office of EU Public Prosecutor to be set up with terrifying power over us, EU Police forces ditto. Our centuries -old right of Habeas Corpus is already being lost.
The knock on the door in the middle of the night: don't think it can't happen here, it soon will unless we're very lucky

boisgolf 1 month ago

4 people liked this.
ID Cards are a tool of a respressive state. No rational case has been made for their use and that should be the end of the matter.

sladej 1 month ago

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There sufficient information on any number of data bases of our personal details as it is.I say NO to Identity cards and any more intrusion in our freedom of expression and our right for privacy and freedoms that have been fought by many in the past.NO TO A SURVEILLANCE STATE.

Adrian Perry 1 month ago
I think many of the comments below are out of proportion to any threat. Having ID cards (widely used in many countries like the famously independent and individualistic France) can only be said to make us "worse than East Germany under the Stasi" by those who haven't studied East Germany. I've yet to hear of misuse of the DNA database - and it is incontestable that it has caught serious criminals. There may be a case against the ID card system (fraud, cost) but this isn't it.

marycurran 1 month ago in reply to Adrian Perry

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The UK system is far more intrusive than any on the Continent. A centralised database, with biometrics, would be a perfect tool for oppression by any future malevolent Government.
If it can be abused, it eventually will be abused . 
I do know quite a lot about East Germany, I've known people who lived there.
It amazes me that people have no problem with being stripped of every vestige of their privacy which is a basic human right. 
Even if DNA solves some crimes (and it only solves a very small proportion ), it it totally unacceptable for the Govt to engage in blanket surveillance.

Do you work for the Home Office or for one of the corporations which will make a lot of money out of this?

Tone Franklin 2 weeks ago in reply to Adrian Perry

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You appear to be such a narrow minded sheep that I actually feel sorry for you!

Tone Franklin 2 weeks ago in reply to Adrian Perry

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France: NON - COMPULSORY!
France
Main article: French national identity card
The country has had a national ID card since 1940, when it helped the Vichy authorities identify 76,000 for deportation as part of the Holocaust.

In the past, identity cards were compulsory, had to be updated each year in case of change of residence and were valid for 10 years, and their renewal required paying a fee. In addition to the face photograph, the card included the family name, first names, date and place of birth, and the national identity number managed by the national INSEE registry, and which is also used as the national service registration number, as the Social Security account number for health and retirement benefits, for access to court files and for tax purposes.

Later, the laws were changed so that any official and certified document (even if expired and possibly unusable abroad) with a photograph and a name on it, issued by a public administration or enterprise (such as a railroad transportation card, a student card, a driving licence or a passport) can be used to prove one's identity. Also, law enforcement (police, gendarmerie) can now accept photocopies of these documents when performing identity checks, provided that the original document is presented within two weeks. For financial transactions, any of these documents must be equally accepted as proof of identity.

The current identity cards are now issued free of charge, and non-compulsory. Legislation has been published for a proposed compulsory biometric card system, which has been widely criticised, among others by the "National commission for computing and liberties" (Commission nationale de l'informatique et des libertés, CNIL), the national authority and regulator on computing systems and databases. Identity cards issued since 2004 include basic biometric information (a digitized fingerprint record, a printed digital photograph and a scanned signature) and various anti-fraud systems embedded within the plastic-covered card.

The next generation of the French green card, named "Carte Vitale", for the Social Security benefit (which already includes a chip and a magnetic stripe currently containing very little information) will include a digital photograph and other personal medical information in addition to identity elements. It may then become a substitute for the National Identity Card.
(Wikipedia)

Manifesto Club 1 month ago

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The Manifesto Club is supporting the Power 2010 proposal to roll back the database state. We believe that civil liberty is the most important issue of our age - and the basis for the political alliance for the future.

The expansion of the state into most intimate aspects of everyday life is one of the strangest and most worrying developments of our times. Who would have thought that a grandmother would have to register with the Independent Safeguarding Authority (ISA) before she was cleared to help out at her grandchildren's nursery? Or that an artist could be twice interrogated by the police for painting a watercolour near City Airport? That several councils could draw up regulations for queuing at the bar in pubs? Or that peaceful picnickers could have their bottles of wine confiscated by police, in the name of preventing ‘anti-social behaviour'? 

More and more, we are allowed to act only after we have gained the state's permission first. We need official permission to have a singalong in a pub (we must apply for a council live music license), to volunteer at our local nursery or football club, to photograph near Parliament, to have a demonstration in the street (apply to the police weeks in advance), or even to hand out leaflets in a town square (several councils charge a ‘leafleting tax' or ban it altogether).

This growth of the state undermines the principle of politics itself: the very principle that the state acts only at the behest at the citizens, and expresses our will, our views and opinions. Instead, now, it is we who must act only at the behest of the state.

If we cannot have a singalong without the council's permission, how can we have the right to decide on economic and social policy? The eclipse of the free citizen calls into question every aspect of democracy and civil society. Without the free citizen, nothing else in democracy works.

At the Manifesto Club, we believe that the politics of Labour versus Tory distracts from the real political issues of today. Underlying these old political frameworks is a new, real and vibrant political division: between those who are for and against freedom. Supporters of freedom - those of us who are against all aspects of the hyper-regulatory state - are currently distributed across all political parties and none. We say that we should be on the same side, in a broad-based alliance for civic freedoms. Libertarians of all parties unite!

Simon Tomlin 1 month ago

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By nature, I am opposed to all forms of tyranny and the National Identity Register, of which the ID Card scheme is a centrifugal cog, is unacceptable to any person who loves freedom. If the ID Card was made compulsory for all UK citizens, I would refuse to register for the card and prefer overt prison as opposed to the covert prison we now live in. I sincerely hope the ID Card is killed off by a wave of massive public opposition. It's not about the financial cost, it's about the immeasurable cost to one's liberty.

gazman 1 month ago

4 people liked this.
Clearly Blairs infringement to remove the last of what little freedom we have, not forgetting the other 228 acts of freedom he has already had removed, Dr Vernon Cole wrote a superb article.

Sirterence 1 month ago

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I gather that citizens with some mental health problems(ie the brilliant Stephen Fry with bipolar disorder) do not have a vote. How can this be justified?

PETER DORR. 1 week ago in reply to Sirterence
Sirterence,
I do not think that this is correct. HOPEFULLY I am not wrong - but can someone give a legal opinion? Thanks.

scrutoneer 1 month ago
 
3 people liked this.
There have been so many instances of people suffering disproportionately for "youthful indiscretions" which may have taken place decades before. Personal and "control-facilitating" information is definitely NOT safe in the hands of governmental agencies. Societies which have gone down this route have a huge tendency to become sclerotic and "frozen"; thus forfeiting the flexibility needed to adapt to changing future social and economic conditions: one North Korea is enough!

Audrey @ Manormead 1 month ago

 
3 people liked this.
I have always found the fact that all this information is held on everyone is a step towards a totalitarion state.

Gordon Morris 1 month ago
 
3 people liked this.
This is a fundamental civil liberties concern. It is illiberal. It is expensive. No one has been asked to vote on this at the ballot box. It has the potential to poison relations between people and (the people's!) State. Have a look at teh No2idcared site (http://www.no2id.net/).

Steven Auld 1 month ago
 
4 people liked this.
Too many government IT projects in the last 30years have gone over-due and over-budget, they have failed to earn widespread support from it's service users, and are still regarded "unfit for purpose".

Yet the perpetrators (contractors) responsible for these failures have not been penalised or sacked from their jobs. Instead, they have been awarded knighthoods and given the roles of privy adviser to the government on this very project - while still employed by their company.

If it was possible to complete a project like this for under £100Million - which I imagine it is - they would never be allowed to recommend it. So there is a glaring conflict of interest and our needs are not going to be met, and ironically, neither will the needs of the Government or the regulated financial services be met either.

Mrs Pat Jago 4 weeks ago

9 people liked this.
I certainly will vote for the idea to scrap the I.D. cards. The Government cannot look after the information they already have why should we give them more ammunition to lose.

Loyally I serve. 3 weeks ago

3 people liked this.
The very idea of any National Database should be rejected. It is yet another method by which a Central Government can control not only personal freedom but freedom of movement. There is little confidence that what used to be regarded as Common Law rights are respected. "Security" is frequently used at all levels as a restriction on personal freedom and freedom of movement. 

The Police instead of being the thought of as civilian guardians of public safety are now used to restrict legitimate peaceful protest. Example. To read a list of names of the recently fallen at The Cenotaph can lead to arrest under Terrorist legislation.

A person aquitted by a Judge under certain circumstances can now be given a Criminal Record by the opinion of a single anonymous Police Officer under the Section 17 of the Criminal Justice Act. There appears to be no right of Appeal against this Section which can severly restrict employment.

There are more examples which could be given.

Lord Acton wrote and lectured a hundred and more years ago "all power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutley".

b_williams 3 weeks ago

4 people liked this.
Such a degree of intrusion by government into individual affairs can only be an ominous development. Those governments which maintain the highest surveillance on their people have always been those with the most to hide themselves. There is no guarantee that once such a database is built, that its purpose and scope would not then grow beyond a comfortable level.

The supposed aim of controlling terrorism is a distraction. What we need is for government to operate honestly and not to create the conditions for it to grow in the first place - if, indeed, there really is a threat of such magnitude. People who are scared are very easily influenced. A weak and dishonest government will find scare stories a perfect cover.

I recall a "good day for releasing bad news". Since then, I think, there have been many more.

wmcampbell 3 weeks ago
That the U.K. parliament be made up of equal numbers of M.P.'s from each of the four home countries, with a chair person elected annually from each country in turn regardless of political affiliation.
Had this been the case in the past the devolution debate would not have arisen as the inbuilt English majority in the present system would not have applied

PETER DORR. 1 week ago in reply to wmcampbell
Unlike the rest of the UK, England does NOT have its own parliament or assembly. This is morally wrong and politically impolitic.

Thanks.

wmcampbell 1 week ago in reply to PETER DORR.
I did not notice people in England complaining when Scotland Northern Ireland and Wales had to put up with Westminster with its inbuilt overall English majority, and English M.P.'s having the ruling say in what happened in the other three home countries so what is the beef if duly elected Scottish Welsh and Northern Irish M.P's get a say on what affects England English M.P.'s still get the overruling say in what happens there as they always have so shut up and stop whining!

scrutoneer 3 weeks ago

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All farmers will, from January 1st 2010, have to identify their animals with electronic ear tags. This will enable the authorities to record the movements of animals for "disease control purposes". Failure to comply with the tagging regulations (i.e. to tag the animals within 27 days, whether they are to be moved or not) will result in draconian "enforcement action": many farmers have had animals shot because of non-compliance. In addition to this, each animal has to have a "passport", giving further verification of its identity, which has to accompany the animal whenever, and wherever, it moves from the farm of birth.

It is thus not at all far-fetched to suggest that the government might be tempted to record, and control the movement of its citizens if it succeeds in bringing in Identity Cards. The "disease control" justification referred to above can easily become the "terrorism control" justification for a human ID regime. Quite what the analogue of animals being shot would be under a human ID system I shudder to think. But be in no doubt that the sadistic personalities needed to enforce such rules exist: many have already been recruited. 

I have just had the alarming thought that Power 2010 might be the means of "trawling" the blogosphere for the identities of possibly troublesome citizens. In which case all those who have posted radical comments on the state of our political and social affairs, should prepare for the knock on the door!

marycurran 3 weeks ago in reply to scrutoneer
 
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Scarcely is the ink dry on the Lisbon Treaty than the European Commission is forging ahead with plans to create a common jurisdiction throughout its dominions.

Questioned in the European Parliament on 12 January by former EC Chief Accountant, Marta Andreasen, ME-fraud Commissioner Algirdas Semeta stated that "the Lisbon Treaty allows us to establish this office, so we should go ahead". The office that he was referring to was that of European Public Prosecutor.

It would be comforting for British people to believe that the EPP would be like our own Director of Public Prosecutions, overseeing the work of the Crown Prosecution Service, who in turn oversee the investigative and prosecutory role of the Police, and acting as a check and balance or restraining influence. Sadly the reality is very different because a European Prosecutor is more like a Chief of Police, who drives investigations forward, with the powers of a judge (for they are all members of a career judiciary). They wear judicial robes but they carry out a police function - in point of fact the uniformed police execute their commands and do their legwork for them. They have frightening powers and take the initiative in ordering house searches (the dreaded knock on the door in the small hours of the morning); the arrest of suspects; the interrogation of suspects; the imprisonment of suspects (potentially for months at a time, with no public hearing) etc.

One suspects that it was the anti-fraud Commissioner taking the lead on the EPP because doubtless it will be ‘sold' to the public on the pretext of it being a necessary measure to deal with financial criminality. What one can be more certain about is that the establishment of an EPP will be the prelude to the imposition of Corpus Juris because, to enable him to function, the EPP will need a set of rules. What is not generally known is that Corpus Juris adopts the Napoleonic (inquisitorial) method in toto and sweeps away our British system of criminal justice with all its inbuilt safeguards against coercion such as Habeas Corpus, Trial by Jury etc. etc.

It is significant that in December 1998, in answer to a question in the House, Kate Hoey MP, then a Home Office Minister, stated that if Corpus Juris was to be formally proposed the British Government would veto it. She was subsequently removed from office and her political career has never recovered !

Regarding the actual mechanics of creating the position of EPP it is understood that Article 86 of the Lisbon Treaty gives the European Council the power to establish the office by unanimity (with the consent of the European Parliament). Alternatively, if there is not unanimity, nine or more member States can request the Council to draft a regulation and invoke the ‘enhanced cooperation' procedure (Art. 20 TEU)

Mention of the EPP and Corpus Juris would be incomplete without mentioning also the European Gendarmerie Force (see www.eurogendfor.eu). This is the European Union's enforcement agency which doubtless will be deployed as and when necessary to ensure that the EU's writ runs throughout its vassal states.

The fact of the matter is that once this trio, comprising the EPP, Corpus Juris and the EGF, is in place, the absolute supremacy of the EU will be complete and any notions that the British people might harbour of being a truly ‘free people' will simply be a thing of the past.

The EPP and Corpus Juris and the Eurogendarmerie all need our Government's consent before they can have jurisdiction over us but the portents are not good - clearly Kate Hoey was not supposed to have said in 1998 that a British Government would veto Corpus Juris and when, much more recently, Bob Spink MP in the Commons and Lord Pearson in the Upper House, sought assurances that the European Gendarmerie would never be deployed on British soil, the Government, on three separate occasions, refused to give that undertaking.

Surely it must be apparent to all but the most obtuse that our individual freedom is literally hanging by a thread. Given that all Parties represented in Parliament today are wedded to the concept of European Political Union our only remaining hope is that there will be such uproar in the Press and media about these generally unknown features of ‘ever closer union' that our elected representatives are forced to change their policies.

Surely to goodness the primary role of all Parliamentarians is to defend the people's liberty and their democratic institutions - in that respect the present generation of politicians have signally failed and unless brought to book in short order they will have delivered us into complete subjugation within yet another of those totalitarian regimes which continental Europe is so prone to spawn.

The root cause of that particular phenomenon is probably not entirely unrelated to the repressive nature of the features referred to above. In this context it is instructive to see how dissenting voices are dealt with in continental jurisdictions (see the ‘trial'of Geert Wilders at www.archbishop-cranmer.blogspot.com).

To pretend, as successive Governments have done, that there is an equivalence between the British system of criminal justice and that which exists in mainland Europe is the height of ignorance. To be passively allowing our own system to be superseded by theirs simply beggars belief. But the fact that the proponents of this treachery are so reluctant to defend their actions in open forum tells its own story about the evil that is afoot.



Please make the strongest possible representations to your MP to sign


Early Day Motion 637 - see below:
637 EUROPEAN PUBLIC PROSECUTOR 

Bob Spink

Sir Nicholas Winterton

Peter Bottomley

Mr David Drew

Ann Winterton

Philip Davies

* 6



That this House notes with concern that Article 69E, Judicial Co-operation in Criminal Matters, of the Treaty of Lisbon provides for the creation of a European Public Prosecutor's Office (EPPO), a judicial body in charge of investigating, with the power to order national police forces to initiate investigations; further notes with concern that the EPPO will have extensive powers and will not be accountable to the UK Parliament; believes that the creation of such a powerful undemocratic body would show complete disregard for the common law system in the UK; and calls on the Government to ensure that UK enforcement authorities continue to have sole jurisdiction in this country.

Tone Franklin 2 weeks ago in reply to marycurran
This is truly abominable!

scrutoneer 3 weeks ago
 
2 people liked this.
May I thank Mary Curran for her erudite exposition of the true nature of the position of the citizen with respect to European legislation: it is quite obvious that she "knows whereof she speaks".

There now appear to be very many more administrators and politicians for whom the machinations of the EU offer far greater prospects for pecuniary and career advancement than would engagement in similar occupations here in the UK. Many would argue that the political and economic situation now existing in the world dictates that there must, of necessity, be a strong European dimension to our frameworks of government; and that this is a perfectly legitimate arena within which to pursue their careers.

I would not dispute this. But I would want to see much more evidence that their work will include strenuous attempts to incorporate the British experience into the overall legal and social framework of the EU - particularly those elements designed to protect individual freedom, so eloquently outlined by M/s Curran.

What a disappointment it would be if we were to discover that Napoleon, on leaving the field at Waterloo, was heard to mutter "ah well, so I suppose it will have to be Plan B!"

krisuk 3 weeks ago

3 people liked this.
I trust you are aware that the up and coming electoral voting reform system will expect people to start handing over their national Insurance numbers and signatures, in order to "retain" their right to vote. It's already been done in Northern Ireland and it seems that hundreds of thousands of people dropped off the electoral roll. Now, although it is true that your NI number is on many databases, do you really want it accessible in the publicly-read electoral roll? There is an opportunity to download a questionnaire and answer the questions about this issue, and send it to the Ministry of Justice. Don't think that the requirements will stop at NI numbers and signatures; next it'll be your fingerprints.....and then something else....
http://www.justice.gov.uk/consultations/docs/el...
Open for comment till 23rd February.

Bubbleburster 3 weeks ago

5 people liked this.
This is a very worrying development: http://www.publicservice.co.uk/news_story.asp?i...

The government has created an Internet Surveillance Team, despite industry experts telling them it was a very bad idea. This has virtually created a situation where everyone in the country who uses the internet is under scrutiny, overturning Habeas Corpus. This cannot be a good thing, yet the government are wildly determined to plough full steam ahead with their plans, for whatever reason they have up their capacious sleeves. This needs to stop, and we need them to hear our voices unequivocably.

PS. Mary Curran makes many excellent points!

keithleggott 2 weeks ago
I'm all for ID cards. It makes identifying people easier and if you have nothing to hide why be against it. It has many pluses, such as carying medical information in case of an accident. It should also help identify those living here illegaly. The ID scheme is a little flawed but what good idea isn't to begin with. No, i'm afraid those who scream out 'civil liberties' against this idea have it wrong in my opinion. I believe the sooner it is implemented the better.

marycurran 2 weeks ago in reply to keithleggott

2 people liked this.
The "nothing to hide" attitude is very naive and ignores the lessons of history.It assumes that we will always have a benevolent Government which will not abuse the immense power over us that this database will give.Even if this never happened, we have plenty to fear: a lifetime of inconvenience and fines for non compliance, and bullying by bureaucrats. Besides which it's bad enough losing your credit card or passport etc, but infinitely worse if ALL your data got lost together. You don't need to be on this huge central database indexing ALL your data for medical identification, you can carry a medical card; a passport or driving licence is adequate ID; it won't sort out illegal immigration, and any benefits it might have are hugely outweighed by the fact that it will in effect make us the property of the State, living by Govt permission.I think future generations will curse those of us who rolled over and passively allowed this to happen. The Govt's motives behind this are very suspect,they come up with a different excuse for it every week, and there are vested interests. You will be making a very big fool of yourself if you fall for it.

marycurran 2 weeks ago in reply to keithleggott

2 people liked this.
PS Re illegal immigration have a look at the link below, and indeed at the entire NO2ID website.

http://forum.no2id.net/viewtopic.php?t=30652&si...

marycurran 2 weeks ago in reply to keithleggott

jonbrek and 1 more liked this.
I just have one more thing to add. We in Britain have had centuries of living in a free country where we've enjoyed rights, checks and balances against the raw power of the State. As a nation we've become very complacent and take too far many things for granted: privacy,the right of habeas corpus, right to a fair trial, security of property, right to protest, freedom of speech etc etc. We are on the verge of losing all this, without a squeak of protest from the vast majority of people. When our descendents are living in a totalitarian state, they will ask what each of us was doing in 2010 to try to stop this.

keithleggott 2 weeks ago in reply to marycurran
You speak of a totalitarian state and suggest we shall lose all liberties. Tell me then how countries such as America, Canada, The Netherlands, Germany and others are worse off than us. Each have I.D cards of some kind and i do not see a total destruction of free will or a vast difference in civil liberties or any downside that is not compensated by an upside. In fact countries like Norway have proved it helps with the illegal imigration problem they had.

Tone Franklin 2 weeks ago in reply to keithleggott
France: NON - COMPULSORY!
France
Main article: French national identity card
The country has had a national ID card since 1940, when it helped the Vichy authorities identify 76,000 for deportation as part of the Holocaust.

In the past, identity cards were compulsory, had to be updated each year in case of change of residence and were valid for 10 years, and their renewal required paying a fee. In addition to the face photograph, the card included the family name, first names, date and place of birth, and the national identity number managed by the national INSEE registry, and which is also used as the national service registration number, as the Social Security account number for health and retirement benefits, for access to court files and for tax purposes.

Later, the laws were changed so that any official and certified document (even if expired and possibly unusable abroad) with a photograph and a name on it, issued by a public administration or enterprise (such as a railroad transportation card, a student card, a driving licence or a passport) can be used to prove one's identity. Also, law enforcement (police, gendarmerie) can now accept photocopies of these documents when performing identity checks, provided that the original document is presented within two weeks. For financial transactions, any of these documents must be equally accepted as proof of identity.

The current identity cards are now issued free of charge, and non-compulsory. Legislation has been published for a proposed compulsory biometric card system, which has been widely criticised, among others by the "National commission for computing and liberties" (Commission nationale de l'informatique et des libertés, CNIL), the national authority and regulator on computing systems and databases. Identity cards issued since 2004 include basic biometric information (a digitized fingerprint record, a printed digital photograph and a scanned signature) and various anti-fraud systems embedded within the plastic-covered card.

The next generation of the French green card, named "Carte Vitale", for the Social Security benefit (which already includes a chip and a magnetic stripe currently containing very little information) will include a digital photograph and other personal medical information in addition to identity elements. It may then become a substitute for the National Identity Card.
(Wikipedia)

marycurran 2 weeks ago in reply to keithleggott

 
jonbrek and 1 more liked this.
The UK scheme is far more intrusive and centralised than anywhere else in Europe US etc. If it works and is accepted here I think they may try to roll it out in Europe and beyond, There is a lot of discontent in Germany, US and other countries about surveillance and the erosion of our liberties.I don't somehow think the Germans and French will roll over and accept the UK scheme, if it gets there, as passively as many in UK are doing.For one thing a huge centralised database like the UK one would be against the German constitution I believe, for historical reasons.
Further post to follow with link(s) which might interest.

Tone Franklin 2 weeks ago in reply to keithleggott

jonbrek and 1 more liked this.
I'm all for you having cameras & microphones in each and every room of your home that are always on & recording every action you make or take, "just in case" you happen to laugh at a politician incorrectly or use too many tea-bags or have a wish to read 1984, any of which could have you flagged as a potential Terrorist and sent to Room 101 for "Re-education".
You are a Sovereign Individual my friend, with rights and responsibilities far beyond ANY you perceive a dictatorial & potentially tyrannical "Government" may have over any of us, including your good self.
Say No2ID.

keithleggott 2 weeks ago in reply to Tone Franklin
Te main difference between us is that i do not see the negative in everything. You and a number of others appear to look for the worst-case scenario and then bang on and on about it without even looking for positives. As i said to begin with i understand the scheme is flawed and there will undoubtably need to be changes made. But how many fighting this I.D. Card will admit that it has a positive side. It appears to me that the only people prepared to see the other side of the discussion are those in favour of the scheme. And as for my rights and resposibilities, i know them only too well; maybe better than most.

marycurran 2 weeks ago in reply to keithleggott

1 person liked this.
http://www.openeurope.org.uk/research/howtheeui...

www.no2id.net

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/brunowaterfie...

nigel 2 weeks ago

1 person liked this.
appaling overuns on costs along with flippant security of our personal imformation leading to fraudulant use of other peoples data, you would be a fool or a ploitician with their filthy untrustworthy fingers caught in the cookie jar to want this to go ahead.An unworkable unpolicable farce to line politicians pockets, all illegal immigrants and any ethnic minority are rubbing their hands together,in the expectation of huge cheques from us because of the distress they endured, or because it infringed on their religious beliefs the only people being policed would be the ethnic white population of this country flying in the face of "if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear"morons , what a rediculous argument.Totally unnecessary,Totally over priced,Totally unworkable,Totally unwanted,probably pushed on us by an unelected incompetant primeminister and supercillious government!

keithleggott 2 weeks ago in reply to nigel
Seems to me that you are merely quoting every student epitaph spat out at any percieved injustice they do not understand. If you do not like the I.D. scheme then at least voice your own opinion and don't spout the same lines that truely great people like Lenin, Tolstoy and others used against a true injustice, not an one imagined threat against your civil liberties. The fact you call others morons because they do not agree with your stance only lessons your argument and belittles your cause. Think before you plagarize.

Tone Franklin 2 weeks ago in reply to keithleggott

1 person liked this.
And look who succeeded Lenin & Tolstoy... Comrade Stalin. Oh, wasn't he the tyrant who murdered millions of Russians? I do believe he was!
BTW, US Citizens are fighting compulsory biometric ID cards tooth & claw & they're a people who have known true freedom and wish to continue those freedoms.

keithleggott 2 weeks ago in reply to Tone Franklin
Yes Stalin the murderer did come next. Does that have anything to do with my point? No i think it is just a case of someone trying to cloud the issue with a hot point. Something those against the cards keep accusing the politicians of.

Tone Franklin 2 weeks ago in reply to keithleggott
My point being, Keith, with the best of intentions, Lenin & Tolstoy created a system whereby the likes of Stalin COULD gain power and did so with such devastating effects on the entirety of Global peace. Create a tool that can be used for both benevolent or malevolent ends & someone will eventually use it malevolently.

FederalUK 2 weeks ago
It is utterly ridiculous that this option has more votes than 'A fully elected second chamber'.

We already carry state ID in the form of passports and driving licences. ID cards will provide proof of citizenship to the likes of DWP, employers and hospitals proving that the holder has the right to benefits, employment and NHS treatment. It will instantly identify illegal immigrants in police checks (at the moment, they can escape detection by simply not having any ID on them!). It will prevent Social Security fraud. It will prevent many money laundering techniques. The list goes on!

To think this will increase the state's ability to monitor the public is hysteria at the very least! Today, the police already have considerable ability to track people in great detail, from live movement tracking to what food is in their fridge (and before people panic, this is only permitted on major criminals and must be conducted under judicial warrant as per the RIPA Act). 

People carrying ID cards is NOT going to enhance state surveillance in any way.

I repeat.

People carrying ID cards is NOT going to enhance state surveillance in any way.

One more time.

People carrying ID cards is NOT going to enhance state surveillance in any way.

I have had to carry ID cards during my time in The Netherlands and Switzerland. Are these countries 'police states'? The anti-ID Card campaign would have you believe they were.

Before you make up your mind about ID Cards, READ THE FACTS and don't just rely on rumour and myth (which is 90% of the anti-Card campaign!).

marycurran 2 weeks ago in reply to FederalUK

2 people liked this.
How will it sort out illegal immigrants who have shredded their passports; how would we know where to send them back to?
The cost of benefit fraud is small compared to the cost of this scheme; criminals would find ways to get round the ID system and there will almost certainly be a major criminal industry manufacturing fake cards.
The scheme will be centralised with a single reference source, which will increase the danger of ID theft.
The authorities do already know far too much about all of us, but this data is not yet totally centralised ( although it's already rapidly moving in that direction).
What is it that you want of the ID scheme, that is not provided by the system as it stands at present?

Tone Franklin 2 weeks ago in reply to FederalUK

2 people liked this.
A Passport enables an individual to "freely" travel abroad as a certified citizen of a particular State, one does NOT have to own a Passport. A Driving Licence proves that one has the ability to drive a motor vehicle & is licenced to do so, one does NOT have to own a Driving Licence. NHS treatment is free at point of need, registration with an NHS GP entitles one to that free treatment & UK citizens have a Medical Card issued at birth to back that. A N.I. Number entitles one to benefits as well as enabling taxation on earnings, everyone is issued one of them at age 16 or when they enter the work environment.

Illegal Immigrants don't have Passports, many people drive on our roads without DLs, the cash-in-hand labour market will be completely unaffected, Benefit Fraud is more to do with the Benefit system than the fraudsters & NHS treatment is free at point of contact/need.

The last time I was asked for personal ID from a Policeman was nearly 30 years ago & that was when I was driving - and that was before computerised databases that linked every Reg. No. to an owner/driver & whether that driver was Insured etc. all of which info is immediately available to every traffic cop in his/her car upon entering that Reg. No.

I was born a Free Soverign Individual in a Free Land upon a Free Planet and I'll be damned if I'll be forced to own a bit of plastic with embedded electronics that attempts to prove that otherwise!

Create a tool that can be used for both benevolent or malevolent ends & someone will eventually use it malevolently. ID cards are such a monstrously dangerous tool (in the form the promoters wish them to be), that their creation must be resisted, MUST be resisted.

Did you watch the BBC TV Series "The Last Enemy" when it was aired recently? Truth is stranger than fiction!

jonbrek 1 week ago

2 people liked this.
For anyone who still believes in the mantra "if you've nothing to hide, you've nothing to fear", can I suggest that they read "The Dying Light", Henry Porter's latest novel (see alsohttp://www.henry-porter.com/). 
The sociopathic Prime Minister at the centre of the novel shares many characteristics with our current and previous PMs and I see nothing in the way that Parliament now operates to give me any faith that our current slide into a quasi-Stasi state will be prevented without a massive popular protest.
FIGHT BACK NOW!

Tony Walton 1 week ago

2 people liked this.
I always ask those parroting "nothing to hide, nothing to fear" whether they have frosted glass in their bathroom windows. Oddly the answer is always "of course I do - that's different". It is not different; it is exactly the same. It's simply a wish for privacy while going about one's lawful business.

Chelle 1 week ago

1 person liked this.
I will never sign up for an ID card and i shall certainly not vote for labour in the election. People who say nothing to fear nothing to hide are the types of people who would let our freedom be stripped away bit by bit. I will stand up to the crazy people and say NO, NO NO and NO. If people really want ID cards they can have citizens UK cards for 7.50 much cheaper than those biometric ID cards so really this is a better option if it would make you happier to have ID. The DNA cards will not make me feel safer, i will fear for my safety even more considering the amount of data the home office conveniently losses all the time.

drgreat 6 days ago
For reasons of clarity, I'd like to point out that this posting is not the work of Mary Curran. It is copied verbatim from an article by Christopher Gill on The Freedom Association website (of which Gill is honorary chairman). However, the section towards the bottom of the original article which contains reference to the author has been removed. The Freedom Association is a British pressure group which has a libertarian standpoint similar to that of the Bush-era neo-cons.

I would hope that it is obvious to most that many of the statements made are clearly highly opinionated, in fact some of the scenarios espoused are reminiscent of an alternate universe in something akin to Robert Harris's ‘Fatherland'. It bears little in connection to the topic at hand, the national ID database. 

There is also an obvious contradiction in the logic used. Many of the comments on this site refer to the UK having the highest levels of surveillance, in all its forms, in the world, with resultant government ‘intrusion into the private sphere'. In the EU, much of the surveillance which is allowed in the UK is illegal or limited by stricter data control regulations. It is a weak argument, then, to suggest that the country with the ‘most intrusive' government in the world would somehow get even worse if it allied itself with a political organisation that is significantly less intrusive. Of the three major political parties in the UK, only the conservatives have veered to the right in its EU affiliations. This does not imply that they want increased surveillance, only that the political machinations of the EU cannot be painted as ‘all-dark' whilst at the same time lamenting the ‘draconian' situation in the UK, which is generally held as worse. It's not that simple.

marycurran 6 days ago in reply to drgreat
 
1 person liked this.
PS 
Corrigendum
Open Europe link should read

http://www.openeurope.org.uk/research/howtheeui...

marycurran 6 days ago in reply to drgreat

1 person liked this.
Below are details of an upcoming debate in Brussels on "Is the EU a Threat to civil liberties?"
Most of us can't get to Brussels, but Open Europe inform me that they are planning a similar debate in London , and that the audio records of the debate will be put on the "events" page of their website.

Open Europe Invites you to a panel debate:
Is the EU a threat to civil liberties?
Tuesday 23 February 2010
5pm - 6.30pm
First Euroflat Hote
Boulevard Charle